As you probably have read and heard, the great debate over the Trinity D3.5 17.5 motors and ROAR approval has escalated to an all-new level after ROAR approved the motor for stock class racing earlier this year, but then dis-approved the motor late last week.
Dear Partners and Customers:
Here is a timeline of what we believe is one of the worst decisions R.O.A.R. has made in it’s history of governing R/C cars. I hope you will read “this side of the story” and then form your opinion.
On Thursday evening January 17, 2013 at 11:08PM I received an email from Steve Pond. Steve called this a “courtesy email” to inform me that ROAR has removed Trinity’s D3.5 (17.5) motor from the approved list. If you look below, 12 minutes later this was posted on the R.O.A.R. website....Nice courtesy. This was the discussion ROAR had with the manufacture involved with one of the biggest decisions, impacting thousands of racers, manufacturer’s and hobby shops alike?
"After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination."
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News.
Steve also said in his email the following:
“I believe, based on what you’ve told me, that you intended the D3.5 motors to be in compliance, which I’m certain is the reason it was submitted for approval to Bob Ingersoll (RHI). The same methodology used to approve all previous motors was used. The difference being the wire used in your motors was larger than the permitted specification (BUT IT WAS NOT AS PROVED LATER IN THIS DOCUMENT), but by a small enough increment that it was initially undetected using measuring equipment with a standard level of precision.”
Trinity’s Position: (FACTS):
The Trinity D3.5 (17.5):
Was submitted to Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and was approved by Bob Ingersol and the ROAR Executive Committee and has been on the ROAR approved list for over 10 months! We believe Bob Ingersol who is not only the Technical Inspector for ROAR but for IFMAR as well “is an expert” in this field and NO ONE in our industry in the past 10 years have torn apart and tested more brushed and brushless motors in the R/C industry.
Steve Pond told me by phone that evening that he was doing the testing on our motor due to a large amount of complaints from “competing motor manufacturer’s. He also confirmed that he tested random motors that he purchased throughout the industry on his own as well as ‘the archived motors” that Bob Ingersol and ROAR keep after every submittal. The motor specifications “WERE THE SAME”....meaning Trinity had not changed “ANYTHING” since these motors were submitted to ROAR over 10 months ago!
Why is Bob Ingersol not testing these motors? Why is the “then ROAR President” testing and re-testing a motor that has been ROAR approved for 10 months. Does anyone think it is “odd” that Steve Pond with “very little electric motor experience” testing these motors?
If ROAR feels the need for ‘whatever reason’ to purchase new equipment should older motors that already were approved by ROAR be subjected to now new equipment (that sill remains nameless) and different protocols for legality? Does anyone else find this strange? If ROAR wants to install new testing equipment it is their right but shouldn’t they have launched a date for new approvals for motors that have not already passed inspection to try and enforce new protocol for new specifications?
It is now rumored that one of the “competing motor manufacturer’s” who complained the loudest about our motors actually purchased the new equipment for ROAR? Does anyone see this a “possible conflict of interest”. This would almost be as bad as ROAR having a ‘competing’ motor manufacturer (Ron Schurr of Schurr Speed) sitting on the ROAR Executive Board in charge of submissions and legality of new products?
*This decision seems to be one a “lawyer dreams about”......
Steve Pond has repeatedly said that US copper wire manufacturer’s produce copper wire with “ZERO TOLERANCE”. When I first heard this my initial response to him was there is “nothing manufactured in the world” which has ZERO TOLERANCE. Jim Dieter, the designer of the Trinity motor confirmed this and tried to give examples to Steve Pond on how this statement was false. We had a letter signed by the company owner who produced this motor in China that the motor was wound with 20AWG wire (as ROAR rules state) and complied to ROAR’s specifications.
*We received no return comment from Steve Pond.
Jeff Schroeder, the owner of Fantom Motors who has more expertise in winding electric armatures with “copper wire” has supplied the ROAR Executive Committee with “hard facts and contact people to call in this country” showing that all copper wire is sold with tolerances which means “Steve’s initial thinking that the 20AWG has no variance due to tolerances” was a “COMPLETE FABRICATION” of the truth.
Here are excerpts from Jeff Schroeder’s very factual letter to ROAR:As mentioned above, the wire specs that ROAR listed are simply not correct. First, the rules state that the wire size can be a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm. This in itself is a conflicting statement. Obviously, the person who wrote this rule had no experience with AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire sizes, because if they did, they would know that all AWG wire has indisputable allowable tolerances. Furthermore, all magnet wire conforms to one universal specification, the NEMA MW1000 spec, which allows for these tolerances. Simply put, you cannot list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG or 0.813mm in the same sentence, because it's absolutely not correct according to AWG standards.
B) In light of this situation, I also contacted the wire company that I have been purchasing wire from for many years. The company is MWS Wire Industries and my contact is Kevin McClure. His email address is: kevin@mwswire.com Upon asking Kevin what the industry specifications are for 20AWG wire, here is what he replied to me:
With any wire there is always going to be a tolerance, in the case of 20 AWG, the bare copper tolerance is .0317-.0323". You won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" Bare. FYI: The overall diameter of a 20 STAI wire w/enamel is .0329-.0339".
If you would like the complete email, to confirm that I am not making this up, I will be happy to forward the entire conversation upon your request, and/or you can email
Note: Jeff at Fantom has received “NO RESPONSE” from Steve Pond or the ROAR EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE
There is simply no arguing that AWG wire has a tolerance and this tolerance should be allowed by ROAR if you are going to put "20AWG" and the "maximum size" in the same sentence of your rules. There is nothing in this world that is produced without a tolerance...even multi-million dollar F14 fighter jets were built with tolerances. In fact, my brother-in-law is a machinist who worked on airplane parts and the tolerances were in the millionths of an inch, but they still allowed tolerances.
Jeff has also posted photos of stators that he has measured himself with calipers....the same method that ROAR has used for the past 30 years!
Here's a pic I just took of a random stator that I just destroyed to measure the wire. This came from the shipment I just received a couple days ago. As you can see, it measures exactly at the nominal size that 20AWG wire is supposed to be, which is .032" (0.8128mm).
-Jeff Schroeder, Fantom RacingWe can all keep going on and on about how accurate our tools are, but for all intensive purposes, let's just say that all of our tools are accurate to within .0001" (= .00254mm), which is realistic for a good quality set of calipers.
Now let's say that Ron Schurr or Steve Pond’s super duper measuring equipment is correct. The photo floating around the Internet shows the measurement he obtained to be 0.84mm (= .033"). Now check this measurement against AWG (American Wire Gauge) standards for 19.5AWG wire, which would be the next size bigger wire to 20AWG, that Trinity could have chosen for their motors. AWG standards show that 19.5AWG wire tolerances are as follows: Minimum .0336" (.85344mm), Nominal .0339" (= .86106mm), Maximum .0341" (= .86614mm). As you can see, even the minimum size allowed by AWG standards is .85344mm, which is a difference of .01344mm larger than what Ron obtained for Trinity's wire size. In my opinion, this proves that Trinity is using 20AWG wire, which is legal according to ROAR, and that there is a discrepancy in how Ron obtained his measurement. Any competition motor company in their right mind is going to use the maximum wire size they can, which is 20AWG...19.5AWG is simply too big to try and get away with.
Regarding my first paragraph, the point I was trying to make is that no matter how fancy or how accurate your measuring tools are, it comes down to how well the user knows how to use it. If the tool isn't being used correctly, there will be discrepancies. I would like to know what machine they have, when did they buy it, who purchased it and how much time or experience they have on it? It was paid for with “membership money...right? If so, I and every other member and affiliate deserve to know this. They cannot keep it secret....
One final point... Just for the heck of it, I measured the wire on a 17.5 stator again, where the enamel coating was not removed. Where I measured the wire without enamel, I get .032" (= .8128mm) and where I measured it with enamel I get .84mm (.033"). Is Ron measuring Trinity's wire with the enamel coating left on? Makes you wonder. My testing shows that Trinity is using just plain Jane 20AWG...
You have now finished reading a “FACTUAL ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAS OCCURRED”
How do we go forward and our concerns:
A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST and ROAR has made an irresponsible decision here without any time or thought process of how it affects the entire industry. Forget the fact that they are “WRONG” in all of their technical decisions as shown above!
B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL (confirmed by Steve Pond)
C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers, oem manufacturer’s and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON R.O.A.R.‘s APPROVAL" since they run their establishments based on ROAR rules.
ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION OR RESOLVE TO THE MATTER.
It is our opinion that if a court heard this case, an immediate injunction would be granted to keep selling the motor until a court decided on the outcome. I think ROAR should immediately RESCIND this decision and put the Trinity D3.5 (17.5) back on the approved list and take some responsibility for these actions...their information and protocol for what they have done here is not only wrong but completely inexcusable.
ROAR has not considered (obviously) enough how this decision impacts the entire industry at large and the growth of our industry in a very troubled economy where our industry is trying to compete. They are not only impacting Trinity
ROAR, Steve Pond and Ron Schurr have labelled Trinity and all of our oem partners who sell this motor “cheaters”. Remember the ‘competing manufacturer’s do not sell any of their motors on an “oem basis”...they only sell these units themselves (something which used to be illegal when people like Mike Reedy and others were running ROAR.....a motor had to be sold to everyone so there was no edge).
ROAR has not considered the amount of 17.5’s that have been sold to distributors, dealers, consumers and the like and have made a decision “based on the wrong information” which have impacted all of their business and their ability to feed their families and exist in a terrible US economy. People do not have the money to go and buy all new motors with this decision based down by ROAR.
If R.O.A.R. wants to go forward with a new specification and use new Testing equipment protocols they should do this in the next calendar year and consult with all “ROAR affiliated manufacturer’s” and ROAR members for feedback, not have a Kangaroo court of a few people making the decisions of many with an impractical starting date for the entire industry.
For the better of racing and our entire industry, ROAR needs to accept responsibility and right this wrong.......
ROAR should also move forward with the new ROAR President and eliminate all conflicts of interest “within the Executive Committee” so something like this never happens again.
We understand that ROAR is based on the “effort and good will” of volunteers but those volunteers must understand that they have the “responsibility to do what is best for the membership and they hold the livelihood of the ROAR affiliate manufacturer’s whom they look to for support in their hands! Example: shutting down R.O.A.R. submissions of new motors since October of 2012 and still not giving a new date for submissions impacts every motor company in the R/C industry. ROAR needs to be a better job here and understand it cannot penalize or hurt the affiliate manufacturer’s with decisions based on pure ‘emotions’ with no regard for the business decision and economic well being of companies that depend on this to make their “living”
How would you feel if you purchased a home and moved your family into the home with your life-savings. You received your Certificate of Occupancy from the building inspector, your family, kids in school etc etc. Then 10 months later, the Building Inspector knocks on your door and says he has pulled your Certificate of Occupancy Certificate because they are now “approving these in a different way” and you will either have to comply or leave your house? How would you feel? Even people who are this impossible to deal with (Building Inspectors) would not do this...and would “grand-father” your house under the old approvals if the town had decided to do something new or the town called for new testing for the betterment of the town. Think about it ROAR...you are WRONG!
In closing, Trinity and it’s oem partners hope ROAR and their new leadership can understand our frustration and correct this situation now so this does not have to be turned over to the court system where everyone loses. But we cannot accept a decision based on the facts we have presented above. I am hoping the new leadership in ROAR can see the problems and the injustice and will “right” the “wrong” that has been done very soon.
Sincerely,
Ernest N. Provetti
Trincorp, LLC, Managing Partner
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